On gender justice in sport w/Beth Doran
Show notes
This is the one where Élaina and Beth Doran discuss what it means to feel “capable” in philosophy, applied philosophy, and questions of gender justice in sport.
As mentioned in the episode, I recommend checking out Translash Podcast ep 15: Trans Athletes Speak Out and Translash Media’s mini series “The Anti-Trans Machine”, which starts with the episode “It’s Not Really About Sports”.
Articles mentioned in this episode:
“Against sexual discrimination in sport”, by Torbjörn Tännsjö
“Sex Equality in Sports”, by Jane English
“Out of Bounds? A Critique of the New Policies on Hyperandrogenism in Elite Female Athletes”, by Katrina Karkazis, Rebecca Jordan-Young, Georgiann Davis, and Silvia Camporesi
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Philosophy Casting Call is hosted, edited, and produced by Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril
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Transcript
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 0:19
Hello, and welcome to Philosophy Casting Call, a podcast that features underrepresented philosophical talent. I'm Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril, your host and resident casting director. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Beth Doron and her research on gender, justice and sport. Beth is a third year PhD candidate in philosophy at the University of Aberdeen, as well as a rugby player and former rugby coach, and her current research focuses on the ethical justifications of sex segregation in sport. Before we begin, I want to note that trans inclusivity in sport comes up in our conversation, and we discuss it as philosophers. However, as to sis women, we cannot speak with authority on the experience of trans athletes. If you're interested in a trans perspective on this topic, I highly recommend Imara Jones' interview with CeCe Telfer and Chris Mosier, on the Translash podcast which I have linked to in the show notes. I also highly recommend Translash Media's new mini series, "The Anti-Trans Hate Machine", and its first episode discusses anti-trans legislation in the US concerning sport specifically. Now, without further ado, here's my conversation with Beth Doren.
Hello, Beth, welcome. Thank you for being here.
Beth Doran 1:51
Hi, Élaina, thank you for having me.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 1:51
I'm so excited to have you on. So we've known each other for a few years, but I realised I don't know much about your research. So I wanted to ask you how, or when did you decide that philosophy was something you wanted to pursue?
Beth Doran 2:12
Um, you know, that's funny, I think it's difficult to maybe pin down a moment where I wanted to pursue it maybe more academically or to go further with the pursuit of philosophy. But I didn't really do any philosophy until I was in university, I think I started in my search engine first year is kind of like I picked up as a random extra course choice, because the course looked interesting on them, morality and how we should live and things. So I started to really enjoy it, then I guess that was when I first realised that I liked philosophy, I first read that maybe I had more of a natural talent for philosophy than history, which I, I initially started to study. Um, and then it wasn't until maybe I got into about, let's say, third year, fourth year that I thought, wow, I could actually maybe go further with this, I love studying, I really enjoy learning. And, and I thought about doing a Master's after my after I'd graduated, I think, maybe also slightly to delay the time, I'd have to think about career prospects. And but I was really looking forward to doing a Master's. And just as luck would have it. Instead of the Masters, my current supervisor got in touch with me about a project that we were both very interested in and asked if I wanted to apply for his Ph. D. programme instead. So in at the end of my fourth year, I applied for a Ph. D. programme, and somehow miraculously got it and started that September. So I think it was when he spoke to me, first of all, so I think the January of 2018, when I was nearing my graduation, that I thought, Oh, this could maybe be more than just a, an interest, maybe more than just an my undergraduate degree, this will go further than that. So yeah, it was maybe a bit of a drawn out process rather than a one defining moment, but definitely. Around then, when I was more encouraged, I guess.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 4:14
I was wondering if you could speak more on when you say you found you had a more natural ability to do philosophy rather than history? What do you have in mind when you say that?
Beth Doran 4:24
Yeah, I mean, it made me sound a bit big headed when I said that but i think i think what I'm what I found instantly with philosophy was the way that you write for philosophy essays is so different the way that I was asked to write for English or for history, or for really any other subject that I'd done, I think it as much as it's still very formal, it's a formal type of writing. What I found was that my my lecturers were really looking for my opinion on things. So I got to really kind of insert my own thoughts, my own perspectives on a lot of the topic. Except we were learning about, and I didn't really find that happened quite so much in the other subjects in other subjects, you're asked to almost relay other people's arguments, which is fine. And I understand that the need for that as well, especially at the level of history or English, or what have you that I was taking. But with philosophy, it was, it was a really key thing to, to tell them what I thought about the subject, which I appreciated. Also, we got to write in first person that just made a lot more sense to me as well. And also, I just think, I see maybe a bit more of a natural talent for it, I also think I was given some really good advice very early on about how to write essays. And which surprisingly, doesn't always happen at university as expected that you know that already. Whereas in my first year, I got a course coordinator who told us, I want you to do this, this and this extremely clear advice. And it was just easy for me to kind of carry on with that. So I found that I did very well, very quickly, even though I'd had no experience in in in high school or anything like that.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 6:04
Yeah, that's really good to hear. Because having taught for a few years myself, there is a lot of assumptions that go on. And students come from different backgrounds, different countries, and they don't really understand necessarily how to structure an argumentative essay off the bat. And so it's really good that you had that course coordinator who gave you that structure. And yeah, so you found it. It sounds like you found it more freeing to be able to express your opinion, whilst I've talked to other students who find it a bit paralysing, because as you say, it's not a common thing in undergraduate courses.
Beth Doran 6:46
Yeah, I mean, I could actually I could see that as well. I think when people say that, you know, ask about what the kind of maybe the most hard parts of a degree is in philosophy, it would maybe be having an having your own opinion, having to backup that opinion, things like that, that can be quite scary. I think for me, now, things are different. Now, when I write I want to write about what I maybe naturally agree with or believe in or what I actually want to argue. But in my undergrad, I would just experiment with the kind of arguments that maybe I didn't necessarily agree with. So I would be arguing for things that I thought, you know, maybe in the real world, I wouldn't be taken with this quite as much. But it's interesting to be able to argue for something that you don't necessarily 100% agree with, or something that you can still see the merit in the argument with, regardless, you know, I found that really interesting. So what I'm saying, I guess, is that I didn't have to have a really strong opinion on something every time I wrote, it was more that I would take an argument and I would, I would push that and I would explore that and engage with that properly. And which I just found was really fun, I guess exciting. As much as it can be.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 8:04
Yeah, it can be really satisfying. You just have to get over that hurdle of saying you don't have to be married to this opinion. It doesn't have to reflect everything that you stand for forever. And always, but it's this idea of, even if it's just an exercise of arguing for something you don't believe in, it will allow you to find counter objections that you can formulate your own position afterwards like to address those. So yeah. So you decided to do a PhD that focuses on gender and sport?
Beth Doran 8:41
Yes, yeah.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 8:43
Why is that?
Beth Doran 8:43
Oh, well. So I, as part of my undergrad programme, I did a gender equality course, which I now believe that we both have taught as well. And, and one of the topics that year was about sports, gender equality in sport. And it was kind of questioning a lot of the assumptions that we have about the gender segregation of sport. And I have to say, when I first had the when I first took part in the class, I am a rugby player, I have coached and played rugby, I've seen all the huge rugby men and all the A lot of my rugby teammates have maybe started at a later age and things and I just thought, No, no, I can't see it. I can't see that we would ever be able to get to a point where maybe men and women could play together maybe that works for some sports, but not rugby, you know, not, not the contact sports, things like that. I had kind of maybe an opinion that I'd set in stone already before the class. And, and actually it was during the class and maybe during the discussion in the tutorial afterwards that I started to realise, actually, maybe I'm wrong. And maybe there's more to this than just my initial opinion. So I think what really grasping what and something I maybe have mentioned already, I like But philosophy is that I changed my mind on that topic. And I also was in a tutorial where a lot of people were against the idea. And so we had a really heated discussion about it. And I left feeling maybe angry, but also inspired and then in courage to look further into that topic in a way that I'd maybe hadn't about other about other topics, which we'd already we all maybe agreed on. So part of what I enjoyed about it was that it's controversial, and it's not something that we maybe have too much knowledge on already, not something we've really explored already. So yeah, that was kind of where the the interest came from.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 10:44
And yeah, because in many ways, it's unpopular to voice an opinion that says, you know, women shouldn't work in an office or shouldn't run for political office or shouldn't study in universities. And that's unpopular to say, but somehow the same people who would say I'm for gender equality, okay, well, obviously, when it comes to sport, we can't Yeah, because it goes back to the body of something very essential Ising, that when you've rejected essentialism in basically everything else, but then you're like, but for this, we get to keep it.
Beth Doran 11:23
Yeah. So I so yeah, I guess the question that I look at maybe most, most throughout my research is about the segregation of sport. We segregate by men and women or I guess more males and females in sport, depending on supposed to be biology. And but if you suggested that for, like you said, If you suggested that for something else, if I said, Okay, women cannot run businesses in the same areas as men, or they have to do it, and it has to be a woman only business or if I said to you, yeah, we we don't allow women to enter this, this profession, but they do get to enter this other kind of profession, which is for women only, we would maybe think that's not necessarily on and and one of the examples that was used, I think, in one of the the very primary texts that I read was about race, it was, you know, we might actually have it that in a lot of the maybe top elite 100 metre races, we probably find it more heavily populated with with black men than we do with white men. But would we suggest that then we should segregate sports or segregate 100 metre races by by race? You know, that sounds racist to me. And we maybe wouldn't have that. Whereas it seems to be okay to do that between males and females in sport. And I think that comparison, maybe brought a few things home to me as well. about the topic. So, yeah, my topic generally asked about these things is maybe theoretical, philosophical concepts and tries to work out the most ethical pathway throughout that to make sure that we're doing something that's, that's right. I guess I'm good. But also, you know, I don't want to just live in the world of theoretical philosophy, I want to know about what is also practical, what's safe, what's going to encourage people to, to continue with sports, because at the end of the day, it's about enjoying sport, and about having access to it, and, and all those things that go along with it as well accessing those benefits. So there's two sides to it, which I'm trying to balance up throughout my research.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 13:44
And how do you feel that your experience as a rugby player, and a rugby coach has factored in not only this research interests, but in how you conduct your research? And what aspects as you say, You're really keen to see this as kind of applied ethics? Like it's not just a thought experiment. It's how does gender justice happen in the real world? Yeah.
Beth Doran 14:10
Well, I mean, like I said, initially, my experience from rugby turned me off the idea of ever having even the possibility of integrated sport or something close to it, but now I find it quite useful. Because whenever I think about anything new within my research, I always have, in the back of my mind, the sport that is probably one of the most controversial or among the most controversial for, for integration, or I guess, a step away from segregation. And so I always have to think this might you know, this might be fine in tennis or this might be fine in swimming, something where you're not competing in the most aggressive way against or directly competing against your opponents. But in rugby, you have to think about those things as well, there's a lot of like, I guess it's not quite violence, but a lot of physicality. And you have to you're, you know, tackling your opponents, but you're also, you know, handling your own players quite a lot of the time in scrims are in, in your tackles in your box, things like that those things happen all the time, you have to have quite its hands on really. And so when I think about the safety of players of maybe female athletes of trans and intersex athletes as well, rugby, is a good sounding board to think about what is what's going to be appropriate and what's gonna be appropriate at the maybe the most extreme level. And if it works there, then it's likely that it's going to work down the levels as well, like I said, maybe the less direct sports maybe sports where you're you compete against a circuit rather than, an opponent, things like that. So yeah, I think my experience with it helps a lot. I also think that a lot of my my opinions have been shaped on some of the people that I have coached. So I think something that changed my mind a lot really, at the beginning was, I used to coach this class, it was a school of rugby class, and they would take some periods of their school day to do rugby instead, because they were very good. And we had a very rugby focused school. And in this class, I would say there's probably about 15 boys and one girl, and the one girl in the class was, I mean, by far and away, the best player that was there. And I think that happened the year before it as well, where there was one girl and she was fantastic. She was this, this girl that I'm talking about was the strongest she was the taller, she was the fittest, she had the best skill level. And in my mind, the only thing that's going to hold her back, or that was going to hold her back in rugby, was that she she wouldn't come up against the very best in her area, she would maybe have a team of about four or five other girls who were maybe interested in rugby that maybe had the same skills as her, you know, probably not. And so I was it because it's not a hugely encouraged sport for women really. And, and so a lot of the time I was thinking about her and players like that, who cannot access sports in the same way, just because they're women. And because that's not really done so much in the area. And all the focus goes to the boys and the people that they should be playing against skill level wise, they're not allowed to simply because of their gender, or simply because of their, their biological sex. So yeah, it's really, I think that's shaped a lot of what I have me changing my mind on on the topic as well.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 17:44
So what you're saying is that there seems to be at least two aspects of there's like the inner game dynamics of having people of maybe different body masses or different strength levels, being very physical with one another. But then there's the question of access to resources, and of how women participating in sports like rugby is more or less encouraged in a very material logistical way.
Beth Doran 18:15
Yeah, so there is the kind of, I think there does come into account the safety element of if you people think if you put women against men in a sport like rugby, then of course, the woman will be overpowered or hurt or injured or something, because the men are so huge. For that objection, maybe I would say you maybe haven't seen a game of women's rugby. Because there are a lot of big, strong tall women who play along with the smaller the petite, the fast the agile, and, and, you know, nobody maybe raises concerns about that in the same in the same way. So, in my opinion, why should we worry then about necessarily the the gender of the, of the big person that you're trying to tackle down? That shouldn't we shouldn't take that into account quite as much, but then also like, yeah, so I mentioned about the, the access to sport and stuff, I think rugby again, it, it makes it quite clear for me, as a rugby player in, in central Scotland, you know, central Scotland, where you would think there would be quite a lot of opportunities, I had to travel, you know, a number of miles to go to a club for women that would have an appropriate amount of women that I could really play against or play on a team for things like that. Whereas around the same area, there was multiple men's clubs, and multiple multiple opportunities for men to play rugby into to develop their skills. Now this might not happen for every single sport because I think that a lot of the time Now we do have the the sports there in the setup there the structure there for for a woman to play on maybe a women's team in the area, but I think for rugby and those those sports that are slightly less encouraged to women or have traditionally been less encouraged to women, it's still quite hard to access these, these opportunities. And if I was able to play against men, you know, still at the level that I was I wasn't a first team player, but maybe I would be able to play alongside some of the men are in that squad and be able to hold my own. And if the girl that I coached was able to play against her peers, on the the youth teams in the area, we would have developed our skills much more easily, we would have had much more access to, to the games to the resources, you know, everything that makes you a better player. So I think, in my mind as well, that is something that that is, I guess, shaped by the thought of rugby as well as that this does happen where it's hard to access sport, unless you are if you are a woman, I guess.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 20:55
Yeah, I was listening to an interview with transgender athlete, Chris Mosier, and he was saying that for that reason of access, that he started playing only co-ed sports and then was drawn to track because it was an individual sport, that he didn't have to deal with changing rooms. And yeah, the level of access determined kind of the sport he decided to invest in and perfect. And what have you seen in your research about access to playing sports or having athleticism as part of your identity for trans people?
Beth Doran 21:35
Well, so this is something that, again, we started, or my research started thinking about women's access to sport and progression of sport, but quite quickly turned to transgender athletes access within sport. And quite frankly, it's it's difficult to, for trans athletes a lot of the time to find a sport, which they would feel comfortable in which they, you know, are able to access in the same way that cisgendered athletes are able to access. And like you said, this concern has to do with changing rooms, it can sometimes be to do with the physicality of the sport in question. It can sometimes be to do with the fact that in a lot of sports, you have to be wearing very little and maybe exposing more of your body than in other areas of life. And so I ended up reading more on the topic of, of, I guess, transgender athletes in sport. And, and I think as well, this is then shaped a lot of the my conclusions on the topic, not that I've come to any huge conclusions just yet, but a lot of what I'm, I'm maybe aiming towards my topic, it's not just about allowing women to progress, it should also be about having a space where you can join and not have to answer these questions about your identity and not have to maybe explain yourself to somebody, you don't have to ask for permission to be on these teams. And that should be for everybody. I mean, that's what what sport has been really good for in the past is really bonding people and letting people see a different perspective to what they what they're used to, you know, especially when it comes to race and things like we have quite a lot of examples of that. And so, yeah, I think it's a really important thing that whatever I come to, in my research is, with trans athletes in mind, maybe with intersex athletes in mind as well. Or Well, hopefully, with intersex athletes in mind as well. And just my aim is to make sport a safe and comfortable environment for everybody to join and to access. And like I said, if there were more co-ed teams or more integrated teams, there would hopefully be, you know, geographically more in the area for trans people to access as well as for women, as well as for men, as well as for maybe men who are not as have maybe just started the sport for the first time. They're not, you know, when it comes to rugby, for example, they've not been playing since they were 15 and they want to just start as a 25 year old and they don't want to start in a team that's already been hugely established, you know? And, yeah, so that's my aim for the for the sport firm. Yeah.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 24:18
So from what I hearing, you're also addressing sport really as human capability or human capacity and not just elite sport or who gets access to entering into competitions. So would you say that your research is leaning towards advocating for more gender neutral approaches to sport where other factors like weight, height, strength, take precedence over sex or gender?
Beth Doran 24:50
Yeah, sorry, I don't think I maybe mentioned that initially. I think a lot of the discussion around sport and gender and sport does kind of happened on the, in the elite realm they talk about, like us in the big competitions and maybe the sex testing and things that happen for for that. But actually, one of the things I think is important is not just focusing on elite level sport, which, you know, it's important to as well, but to think about the whole sport, you know, is should be there for all of us, no matter what your level is. And I think that it really encourages a lot of benefits that aren't necessarily the ones that you get, you know, elite level sport, you maybe get the benefits of maybe some money and fame and prestige and all that stuff. But this sport is beneficial for many other things, you know, making your friends and, and improving your fitness and having just enjoying, enjoying the sport enjoying the kind of the challenges that brings as well. So my research focuses, I guess, it does talk about elite level sport, but also we're talking about amateur sport and, and the access that that people have to that as well. And in terms of more gender neutral, this is definitely an idea that I'm I'm toying with I'm, I'm trying to bounce off a number of competing, I guess, agendas or ideas within the research. So like I said, some of it is the access to sport and the ability to progress in sport, an appropriate level. And, but to do that, like I said, a lot of it needs to also come down to the practicalities of keeping people safe, keeping people feeling comfortable and secure, and, and happy when they're playing sport. And so I have thought about the maybe more weight categories, maybe height categories, along with obviously, the levels of ability, you know, you would still have that in, in most sport already, you maybe have a first team and a second team or you have the maybe the more fun informal team, and then you've got the serious one and things like that, which I think is important. And I do think that there's a lot of merit further weight and height restrictions, that you may be having that things like boxing already has that in place. But what I would say is that's quite difficult to do for every single sport, because, say for swimming, what is it that you test for that? You know, you want to use something that's that is relevant to the sport itself? So maybe slightly weight and height? Is it maybe a wingspan is it? You know, if you go further and further down the line of what do we what what feature? What characteristic do we use to maybe split up sport, you start to get things like, I don't know, the speed of how they swim, which is, is what the thing that you're testing in the first place. So there is a bit of a danger of going to too relevant with the characteristic that you choose. But then things like weight might not be relevant enough for your 100 metres race or tennis or something.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 28:04
And then there's the risk that you lose diversity that makes the game or the sport interesting. For example, my partner follows a lot of cycling. And he'll often talk to me like Oh, so and so you know, he's not meant to do so well, because he's short, you know. But it was it's interesting to follow his career because he's had to adapt things, because of his height compared to other pro cyclists and things like that. So yeah, it's interesting to be like, well, if we have more and more refined rules about who gets to participate in this category, then we also might risk losing an element that makes the sport enjoyable to participate in and to spectate.
Unknown Speaker 28:50
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the thing is that a lot of what we like about sport is that it's entertaining. And like you said, there's there might be people that you think will they're bound to do extremely well, and people who are bound to lose, and then as luck would have it, they the opposite happens. And it's really that something that's amazing about sport, and it can be the exciting thing that keeps us all going throughout it, isn't it. And I also have a maybe have a fear that and this maybe is too Maybe a bit exaggerated because it doesn't maybe happen so much in the sports that already use weight categories like boxing, but if you start to segregate by a characteristic that you think is is useful for that sport, so say it's something like wingspan in in swimming. Maybe you're discouraged people who go well my wingspan isn't particularly large. So maybe I'm not supposed to be in this sport in the first place. You know, it could has to maybe has two possibilities. Maybe you go "Okay, that's fine because I am now I have a place in sport. That means I can compete against people with a similar physical with similar similar physical attributes to me". And that might be encouraging or it might go, well, "is this for the sport for me if I don't display the characteristics that they've obviously shown are the, the, the ones that are necessary?". So, you know, it's definitely not off the table that that might be something that is that is useful in in maybe segregating sport in different ways. But I have my reservations about it as well, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting question, though.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 30:29
And now, obviously, you're working on your PhD, but do you have any other projects in the works?
Beth Doran 30:36
Um, so I do, actually, quite recently, I was contacted by a member of the Observatory for Sport in Scotland, which is carrying out research in Scotland on a whole host of kind of areas in sport. So at the moment, we're talking about women's leadership roles in sport. And I've got a few interviews coming up, where I'm going to speak to some of the leaders of top CEOs and equivalents in many of the sport organisations, and, but they also talk about things like disability in sport, I think a lot of it will come down in in, in time, to transgender access to sport, things like that. And so that's kind of happening now as well, I've just really started with the with the OSS.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 31:28
But that's really exciting, because it's not a given in philosophy, to have a chance to a do kind of field work, which I believe you plan to do, as part of your dissertation. I find it really exciting to be like, Well, I think about these ideas of justice and epics. But I get to speak to people who are on the ground, trying to organise trying to assess with different methodologies, access needs and equity needs.
Beth Doran 32:02
This is something that I think is really great about the topic. I have an in general, right. It's, it's that I have a lot of, I guess, examples from real life very relevant sources, but also, I can, it's the topic is relevant, the topic is people are, are asking you about it, people are really keen to know more about it from the philosophical perspective, as well as from, you know, Sport Science or something, you know, the more biological elements as well. And so, it's been great, because I feel like I'm I, there's no lack of places that I can gain information from, but also maybe consider as, as future career prospects in a way that, you know, maybe I wouldn't have expected when I first started the PhD, or even first started my degree, my undergrad degree. Yeah, I think you mentioned one of the things that I am trying to include as well, which I'm planning to include as well, my, my research is a questionnaire, a survey, and which asks people about the very questions that I have just identified you about how we, how we progress, but how do we make sure there's enough access for sport how we make sure that sport is more equal than it than it is maybe currently? And, and that there's equal opportunities for, you know, for all athletes. And I want to include the findings of that in my research. Mainly because, like I said, I don't plan on this being a theoretical piece that doesn't get you know that that's all nice to read, but doesn't really stand when you have the practicalities involved. I want the practicalities to be there. And I want it to be basically like a way of structuring sport that is legitimate, something that might actually happen. You know, I don't, I don't think that my dissertation is going to be spread far and wide. And everybody is going to read it in the world and think that it's amazing, but I think that it might be able to change a few ideas, especially from people who are already trying to look at new ways of of structuring sport. And for me, it would be silly not to ask people what they actually think about it, because part of something coming on board, or maybe changing some, some policies and procedures would be about whether or not that is practically possible and whether or not people actually want those things. Also, so I'm really excited about the questionnaire to see what people say about it. I've not released it just yet. I'm just finalising some of the details. But yeah, I think it's going to be really helpful to my topic.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 34:52
Yeah, that's, I find that super exciting. So before we go, I was wondering if there was An author or a paper that you would like to recommend to listeners who might want to look into this topic for something that was really important to you in your journey as a researcher focusing on gender and sport?
Beth Doran 35:18
Yeah, yeah. So there's, there's a few authors, which I would say, maybe primarily sparked my interest, and also helped me along the way with the research that I'm doing now. The first would be Torbjörn Tännsjö. I think in 2000 he wrote that paper called "Against exual discrimination in sport". And that actually outlines quite a lot of the maybe what I've talked about today, and a lot of the the arguments about the people have the common arguments that people have about sport and keeping sport, sexually segregated. And he debunks some of those arguments in there in his paper as well. And it's just very interesting, very easy to read. And I found it incredibly engaging. And, along with that, I also read a piece by Jane English 1978 paper called "Sex Equality in Sports." And I think this is interesting for a number of reasons, this paper because, first of all, it was written in 1978. So we realised that this is something that people have been questioning and thinking about for, for much longer than I ever expected. And she also has some really interesting ideas about how to go about changing sport, that doesn't necessarily include just snapping to integration, and expecting women and women and men, I guess to deal with that, it's she talks about how we can change the sports themselves to reflect more of women, you know, the things that are more traditionally female capabilities. And rather than having more sports, focusing on what we would maybe call male characteristics, the strength, speed, and things like that we think about other excellences in sport that we can encourage. So I found that really interesting. And I would recommend that paper. And then the last one that I would maybe say today, as well as one by Karakazis, Jordan-Young, Davis, and Camporesi's 2012 paper, which talks about hyperandrogenism in elite female sport. And really, it's really interesting. I found my mind was blown after I read it. And I would I would encourage anybody to to read that paper as well. It challenged a lot of things that I had previously taken for granted, I guess.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 37:52
Yes, I believe in that paper they're addressing the return of the six testing that had previously been removed from international competitions like the Olympics, but was reintroduced after people had a bad reaction, should we say to Caster Semenya? Yeah, sex identity and gender identity? So yeah, I definitely recommend that one as well. And I'll link all of these in the show notes for everyone to find. Oh, that's perfect. Thanks. So we've come to the end. Where would you like people to find you on the interwebs?
Beth Doran 38:33
On the internet? Well, I believe I have a well, I have a Twitter account, which I maybe use sparingly, just for my, for my research, and but I maybe wouldn't suggest going there because I'm quite bad. I'm never going to often enough. And so probably the place I use most often is is Instagram. Would you like my handle for Instagram?
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 39:01
Yes, please!
Beth Doran 39:01
Yeah. And so it's @_bethdoran_ is my handle. Not very inventive. But it's, but you can find cute pictures of dogs. Exactly. It's mainly cute pictures of dogs. I have to say it's not so much my about my research. But yeah, cute pictures of dogs that can be through.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 39:23
Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me and have an excellent rest of your day.
Beth Doran 39:29
Yeah, thank you so much!
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 39:31
See you soon. Bye!
And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining me today and I hope it gives you a glimpse into an area philosophy that might not have been familiar to you. If you have any thoughts on this episode, or if you want to suggest a future guest, you can email me at philosophycastingcallpod@gmail.com or follow me on instagram and @philoccpod. Finally, Philosophy Casting Call is an independent podcast that depends on lovely listeners like yourself. So text a friend who plays sport above this episode, you can support this project on ko-fi.com/philoccpod by subscribing to the podcast on Spotify anchor Apple podcast Stitcher, or wherever find podcasts are found and leaving five star reviews five star reviews only. This helps people find the show. Until next time, bye!
Transcribed by https://otter.ai