On public philosophy, reparations, and teaching in jail with Lisa Martinez-Katout
Show notes
This is the one where Élaina interviews Lisa Martinez-Katout on asking for what you need in philosophy and teaching others to never stop asking questions. You can find more about Lisa on her website : https://lisamm-k.com/. You can learn more about the Center for Public Philosophy at UC Santa Cruz here and here.
Articles mentioned in this episode:
"Roasting Ethics" by Luvell Anderson
"Racist Humor", by Luvell Anderson
Remember to rate and review the podcast wherever you listen! You can find Philosophy Casting Call on Twitter and Instagram @philoccpod, read the the transcripts at https://www.elainagauthiermamaril.com/philosophy-casting-call-podcast, and support the podcast on Ko-Fi.com/philoccpod.
Philosophy Casting Call is hosted, edited, and produced by Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril, whom you can follow on Instagram @spinoodler and Twitter @ElainaGMamaril.
Transcript
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 0:18
Hello, and welcome to Philosophy Casting Call, the podcast that features under represented philosophical talent. My name is Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril, and I'm your host and resident casting director. Today I have the pleasure of sharing an interview I had with Lisa Martinez-Katout, a PhD student at the University of Pennsylvania, where we discuss a multitude of things, including teaching in jail discovering philosophy after a career in finance, and what Lisa is doing right now and philosophy of race. And this conversation really struck a chord with me because my experience is similar in many ways, although completely different. And I hope that this will reach people up there who needed to hear Lisa's experience. So even though this was a really intense week for me, and I successfully passed my viver Hooray. I really wanted to get this episode out on time, because I was really excited. I was editing it, and I was just laughing and it was so good. So hopefully you enjoy. Without further ado, my interview with Lisa Martinez.
Hi, Lisa! Welcome.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 1:40
Hi!
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 1:41
Thanks so much for joining me today. I was wondering if you could maybe introduce yourself briefly to the listeners and what you're doing right now.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 1:49
Yeah, my name is Lisa, and I'm a first year PhD student at the University of Pennsylvania. And my research interests are in philosophy of race, aesthetics, ethics, and I'm starting to dabble a little bit in philosophy of language.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 2:05
Yeah, I was reading about that you did philosophy of photography. And you're also looking into like philosophy for children. So that was really, really interesting. Can you tell me when you discovered philosophy as something you wanted to pursue?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 2:21
Yeah. So I, I went back to school, like a college student. Later in life, I first when I graduated high school, I was already working in the business world. And I just kept doing that till I was about like 24. And I was in mortgage banking. And I just kind of reached the point where it just wasn't doing anything for me anymore. And so somebody suggested that I go back to school. And so I did. But I went back to school thinking I would do like economics or public policy or something like that. And I was doing that I took the econ courses that I needed to take. But then I took an intro to philosophy class, and it just like completely, as cliche as that sounds, and as I feel like people say this often, but it completely changed my life. Because in the business world, or in some of the other classes I've taken, it wasn't really stressed to think for yourself, or to kind of like, express or question like authority, really. And I was getting a lot of that in the philosophy course. And I had a great professor. And so I kind of was like, Whoa, what is this? And I continued to take philosophy courses after that, and I've never turned back.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 3:42
And do you think you've carried over some things that you've learned in your business and finance training over into your practice?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 3:51
Yeah, totally. I think at first, I was just kind of looking at all kinds of different ways of Okay, how what, what areas of philosophy can I like get into, and so I was like, looking at religion, and I kind of was trying to look at everything else. But what was like staring me in the face, which was just like the injustices that are in place in society. And so and things that I like, directly saw and in terms of, you know, the market in the United States and mortgage and things like that. So I'm finally when I accepted that, which was like, probably in my like, third or fourth year of undergrad, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go full force of this". And I really start focusing on like race or injustice or political philosophy, because for some reason, I don't know why I just, I didn't want to face it at first, but then it just like kind of clicked. And that's just kind of been what I'm been interested in ever since then.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 4:47
Yeah. I can relate to that of kind of resisting what you want to be doing. Uh, for me, it was more that I didn't want to be pigeonholed into like, oh, "you're a woman and philosophy so you're doing ethics" or "so of course you care about, like, feminist theory and things". And I resisted that. I'm curious for you, was that the case of like, well, "if I'm doing philosophy, this is kind of a sub sub field of philosophy. And I'm maybe I shouldn't be doing that".
Lisa Martinez-Katout 5:18
Yeah, I think so. Because I mean, you hear all the time about, like, rigor, when you're in philosophy, like rigor, and like, there's a lot of emphasis, at least, like in this kind of areas that I was at, like, into emphasis, and like, ancient philosophy, or, like just anything else, but like race or political philosophy, which is how I got into aesthetics, which, which is great for me, because I, you know, I do photography, and I really like art. And that is something no matter what I do with race, or anything else in philosophy, I always, like go back to aesthetics and keep myself sane that way. But I think that because of the talk of just being in academia, that I did resist that. And I also didn't want to be like, Oh, the token, you know, like, Latinx person who is focused on race. And for some reason, I just thought that, not that, that that wasn't okay. But I wanted to be I didn't want to be that. But then, at the same time, when things started to click for me, I was like, "No, this needs to happen". And this is something that I'm familiar with. And I should be engaging in this. And then once I did start, I was like, "Oh, this is, this is why I wanted to do the PhD". So yeah, it definitely took some time. And that idea of being pigeon holed into studying this because of who I am, or the way I look was definitely in the forefront of my mind.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 6:50
Yeah, it's difficult, because, obviously, everyone else who does philosophy does things because it interests them. But when you're not the bog standard person you kind of overthink it. And you're like," but am I supposed to be doing this? Who am I supposed to be representing? Am I closing all of these doors if I choose this as my dissertation topic?" Did you have any people that supported you once you had made that decision?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 7:20
Yeah. Where I was at there wasn't a like philosophy of race course or anything like that. So during my master's, my advisor, Samantha Theron, she, she also was not like a scholar of race, she does like Kant, German aesthetics. And myself and another Latino asked her if she would be willing to do like a reading group with us for philosophy of race, because we were interested in it. And we just didn't have anybody else that we felt comfortable asking, really. And she agreed. So she kind of dived into this with us. And it was her first time reading these things. And it was a great experience, because she was just very supportive. And just kind of right there at the beginning with both with myself and Juan. And so yeah, I think her being open to doing this, like reading group with us, and not really having the background in it and just engaging with us was really like comforting, and also, I think, got both of us on the right track to continuing to pursue philosophy of race.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 8:29
I love that. I always like it when we have examples of people who show us that you don't have to be an expert at everything, to continue searching and continue discovering. And I mean, kudos to you and to Juan for asking for that and say like, "this doesn't exist. I want to create it."
Lisa Martinez-Katout 8:51
Yeah. Yeah, we definitely Yeah, it was just something that we had been talking about. And it was kind of like a shame that that wasn't offered there. And we had this interest for so long, but we just, I think he was doing like Latin American Studies as well. But I wasn't. So I just like really had this, like, I want to do this, but I want to read this stuff with other people. And so I finally was able to, and that was, that wasn't until my master's.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 9:16
I mean, it's not offered most places. I would say, I'm ashamed to say that I discover that Angela Davis studied with Marcuse. And I was like, why is she not taught in the department? I mean, like, okay, we can discuss the politics of why that is, but yeah, it's this idea of all of these people who've been around and they're not on the curriculum. And yeah, so it's great to see that you've made that a point of study for you going forward.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 9:49
Yeah, I think that's important. I mean, that seems to be changing a little bit too. And I don't know if that's because of, you know, the events of last year and people just paying attention more And the pressure of diversifying, like so by but I mean, I'm hoping that continues so that people do know about Angela Davis and other figures like, and I found you through the public philosophy center in California.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 10:17
Can you tell me more about your work with them?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 10:19
Yeah, that was such a great opportunity to be able to be a part of that. But so at UC Santa Cruz, there's the Center for Public Philosophy. And the way that started for me, I think, was when I because I did my undergrad at UC Santa Cruz, and then I applied for the Masters there. And so I mentioned in my application, and it was this idea that I had, since I like was transferred to UC Santa Cruz. But I wanted to because there were so many things that I learned later in life, because I didn't go back to school till later, like about feminist thought, or philosophy or critical race theory. And so I had this idea. And I put this in my application that I eventually wanted to just like, get all my friends together who I went to school with. And because everyone I had friends and feminists, the feminist department of critical race theory, sorry, and, and so I had this idea that we would just all get together and then like, create a program or just like, do this thing where we go to like elementary schools. And we do like workshops on each feminist thought or philosophy and kind of introduce these ideas earlier. And then maybe that will help people engage better with each other when they get older, or just be more open to, to ideas that you normally wouldn't get until you go to college. And they approached me and they're like, yeah, we have, we're teaching in elementary schools, and jails. And we're just like expanding our program. And you know, something like, that is something you can maybe start now. And so I that's not something I thought I would be able to do until like way later in life. So that was a great opportunity. And so I didn't end up teaching it at the elementary schools, because I ended up teaching at the women's jail in Santa Cruz. And that was really important for me, because at the time that I started to work with the Center for Public philosophy, the women in Santa Cruz were housed in the same jail as the men. And they eventually got their own facility. And so they were like, looking for ways to get them educated. And so I jumped at that opportunity. And I philosophy was life changing for me. And there's a lot of things to learn in philosophy. So I thought that I could introduce philosophy to them there. And they let me do it. And so I taught a few times there. And it was it was great. And Was that your first teaching experience? Yes or no. So when I was working in business, I, for a long time was a trainer. And so I was just teaching people about the mortgage industry. And that's kind of what I like, learned that, "Oh, I like teaching". But then I was a teaching assistant at UC Santa Cruz. And so that's some experience there. But yeah, teach a full on course, with other adults, that was the first time that I've done that.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 13:19
And did you go in with knowledge of how you would adapt the format or the material? Or did you kind of test the waters and adapt as you went?
Yeah, so Kyle Robertson, who is part of the Center for Public Philosophy, he has been running the program in the jails for a while, and prisons. So he was able to like to help guide me into kind of planning or what not to do and just kind of tips. But honestly, it really wasn't that much different, I think, then, you know, maybe teaching at a university because the only difference was that I think there was just like stricter rules on how to like, do certain things. But other than that, I thought it was important to give them the same material that I would anybody else, I thought that they were capable of it. And so in terms of content, I pretty much the same that I would teach anywhere else.
Yeah. I was reading your the medium article that David Dovich wrote? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And in it it said you were teaching Hobbes. And I mean, I'm a 17th century person, so I'm like, oh, hmm. And so did you find that things that related to political philosophy were more or less easy to engage with in the context of people who are incarcerated? I'm just asking because I'm just curious. In my own teaching, I know there are certain topics that students latch on to more or less and did you... What did you learn, I suppose from your experience.
Yeah. So I, the, the class of they suggested that I teach is ethics. And I kind of initially was, I felt a little strange, like, oh, who am I to go into the jail and then teach ethics even though, like philosophy and ethics isn't always about like, "this is what you need to do". It's kind of exploring questions about right and wrong sometimes. And so it still felt felt a little strange. So I ended up doing the course where it was like ethics and aesthetics. So what I would do is introduce, like an ethical principle or a thinker and then bring in banned art, and kind of pair them together and ask them how, how this thinker would respond to what's going on politically, with why this piece of art is being banned, or something along those lines. And so I did find that like, certain topics, especially a lot of them were mothers, certain topics did kind of grab their attention more, like if a book was banned from a school, and they really wanted to dive deep into that, or even like, read the book themselves and see whether it was appropriate or not. So there were certain parts definitely that they latched on to it, because they took it personal. And then others they were very open minded about and it wasn't as like close to their heart as I would say, the one that definitely they did latch on to a lot was anytime it had to do with like public schools and censorship.
That's, that's really interesting. And so now that you've, you've done that, you told me you want to keep doing that again, now that you're in Philadelphia. Have you made any contacts there? Or what's the next step for you?
Yeah, so here at Penn, there... So a colleague of mine, Dylan, he last year started the process before I got here, of just kind of engaging with the folks at the prison. And seeing like, if it would be possible for graduate students to go in or anybody to go in and like teach philosophy, and then COVID happened. So that kind of complicated things. But then once I got here, we started, we started talking about it again. And like about a week ago, actually, we sent a proposal to the prison outlining like options for them, which is we could either do like a reading group style, or we could teach courses. And what's great is in the works, right now at Penn is a certificate for public philosophy. So we have a professor here that's just really supportive of things like this. And so I think once it becomes clear how the world will be post COVID, then we'll go ahead and see if what I was doing in Santa Cruz, I will be able to do over here and hopefully get other people interested so that it's not just a couple of grad students, but grad students from different departments.
I have a logistical question. Like if someone wanted to do this, where they are, how does the funding work? Is it an organization backing you?
Yeah, so it varies, at least in Santa Cruz, it was a public university. And so there was like, relationships with the kind of local political folks that like, kind of, say yes or no to things. And also, there are because it was a center there were like donors, and also grants that, you know, were kind of sitting there that if you wanted to do this, and you can get paid to go out and do that. Whereas here, since it's such an in the early stages, it's kind of some of us will be just like volunteering until we get something more like established or because you'd be working towards your certificate, I think is how I work. It's it's very early on, so I'm not sure but generally, it seems as though there are tons of prison projects throughout the country. So some, I think, help with funding if you need it. Like for instance, maybe if you need like help getting technology into the jail or prison. But then also, it seems as though in certain areas the local government will help with, with the like funding for like maybe technology or some of these programs, because they are very pro like education. So I guess it varies in the United States on the location, and maybe how they view like education, because I do know that there are certain areas where the local government does help pay for some of this stuff.
I mean, that's that's good to know. I'm happy to hear that because sometimes it's a tough sell even to give philosophy away for free. Yeah. I'm glad that there's uptake.
Yeah, and it's definitely like in the pitch I've noticed so like because people don't know what philosophy is and like I don't think a lot of us know what philosophy is, either or we have different opinions of what it is. So, in pitching, like, why it's important, or why people would even be interested in it is kind of I think, the as kind of weird as this may sound, it might be one of the biggest hurdles is just getting past the pitch and then saying yes. And then then once they say yes, then you can figure out some of the other, the other things, but I noticed that that that is the biggest hurdle.
Yeah, because philosophy sounds either really esoteric, or super vague. Yeah, there's just like, "why would anyone care?" Yes. So I guess now you have you probably have feedback from your previous students in Santa Cruz, that you can say, "hey, yeah, this works. Some people appreciate it".
Yeah, some of the feedback that I've gotten is just, they didn't think that that's what philosophy was about. Or they some of them had the same reaction that I had, which is like, "wow, wait, I can think for myself or I can question you about this, or I can question authority". So I think that that's something that's some of the biggest, like feedback I've gotten. And some I that I know of. I know a few have gone on once they got out and went to enrolled in community college. But I do know at least two decided to major in philosophy, which is, uh, great.
Oh, wow! Yeah, that's, that's a high percentage. Yeah, that's great. Oh, that's, that's wonderful! Yeah, cuz I feel a lot of people have this desire to question in them. I think your instinct to go see children and educate children is correct. And then when you discover that, "oh, there's a whole discourse about how to think for yourself, like, this is what I've been waiting for".
Yeah. And it was one of the things that I found really interesting, which goes back to like the children is, in some of my conversations with the women inside towards like the end of the course. They noticed how how valuable asking questions really is and like, and how you ask them. And some of the feedback that I got, or some of the responses that I got was that they're never going to tell their kids to stop asking questions. They're like, "yeah, it can be annoying sometimes. Because you see why this or Why that?" And that, they've said that, and I think this happens. I mean, what a lot people is just like, Oh, it's because I said so or just listen. But they saw that it was important to continue to foster that, like curiosity, and not just like, cut it off by saying, "it's because I said so" or something like that. And that was that was something I didn't expect. I think it was a great reflection in that course.
Yeah, because we, most of us kind of lose that as we grow out of childhood. And so in a way, I think philosophy is important for that because it kind of greases the wheels that keeps them not yoo creaky, when you're just like, "Oh, I can question the way things are the way things are is not inevitable". And we can do things to change it. Yes, yeah. Which is always something that when I get my first or even second year students, and for example, in a feminist philosophy class, we'll be like, okay, you know, sexism in the workplace, or wherever. And they're like, "Well, you know, there's nothing we can do. It'll always be there". I'm like, "you're 18! And you believe there's nothing we can do" and that makes me so sad. So yeah, I'm, I'm so glad to hear that you got that great feedback, and must be really validating to you as well as an educator.
Yeah, it's great. I'm just, I'm happy that they, they learned something from it.
So now you're doing your PhD? What are you working on?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 24:00
Yeah, so I, so my primary interest is in philosophy of race, the main topic is racial identity. And then that kind of splits off to other areas. I'm interested in racial reparations in the United States. And then also controversially, or uncontroversially? I don't know, depends on who who's hearing this, transracialism is the other one. And so that's kind of like, once I kind of get a better understanding of racial identity in the United States than I think I'll be able to like really branch off into those two other areas responsibly.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 24:40
And can you define for the listeners what you mean by reparations?
Yes, so I'm specifically thinking about slavery in the United States, and also like the Jim Crow era, and the question of "so what are people owed because of these heinous institutions that were in place?" So there are folks that are working on "Okay, so what would reparations look like?" And so my focus would be on who would get them. So I guess it depends on where we land on what it would look like. And it doesn't have to just be like monetary. There are places in the United States like Chicago that are doing things with education or thinking about other ways to to help. But I'm specifically interested in the question of like, "who would get them?"
And that's why you link it to transracialism?
Yes, that topic is interesting when you're thinking about like racial identity, because nobody can have just like one answer, I think for what is racial identity, because what is race? And so? So I think that trans racialism is interesting, because if that is something that ends up being recognized in the United States by the government, how would that impact reparations and like being able to distinguish who, who can get what and whether they quote unquote, really belong to a certain race? And so that's kind of what I'm interested in. I'm also just interested in terms of reference racialism, the question of whether it is morally permissible to even to even claim yourself as trans racial, and by trans racial. I don't mean like transracial adoptees, I mean, folks that identify as a trans racial person.
Yeah. So they, they choose to identify as a race other than what they are?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 26:43
Yeah, right. Yeah. I guess it's like, it's that the way I've seen it is whether an individual who truly feels as though they belong to a different race than they were born as, and that truly feeling aspect is it's supposed to be important, and it's different than racial fraud. Because I think some people kind of lumped them together, but, um, I think they are different. I think there are people who might genuinely feel as though they belong to a different race. And I think racial fraud, as we've seen in academia with last year, is usually like, I don't necessarily think that they really felt as though they belong to that race. I think they just kind of maybe assimilated or sometimes there were like bad outcomes with that in terms of just like taking resources that did not belong to them. So it's kind of tricky, but I think those are the distinctions between the two.
And part of the controversy, it's because it's been compared to being transgender. Yes, yeah. Trans people. And so that's, for me, that leads into a very interesting conversation about the limits of the analogies between gender race ability. Sometimes it's useful for us to have solidarity across different things, but we still need to discuss the limits of how analogous those positions are.
Yeah, definitely. And, and when thinking about trans racialism, that's something that I won't do. I won't, like, discuss it in terms of like, how it how maybe trans identities in other areas, identify it would just be like on its own terms with race. Yeah.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 28:34
I also read that you're interested or you were interested in legal studies, is that still in your future?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 28:40
Yeah, I think that def, I think that still is deeply like entrenched in my research. Because when thinking about like racial identity, one thing that I really always go back to, and kind of ends up being the focal point is how, at least for now, like I'm just thinking about the United States, and maybe later I'll like, branch out, but how the US government legally says that somebody is part of a certain racial category. So like thinking about like the senses, or when you're filling out applications, and there's like race listed and like, let's say your racial categories that on there, or if you're mixed race, and only one of them is on there. So I think because of my legal studies, background, and constitutional law, I am constantly thinking about the social aspect of race and racial identity, and how it's controlled by the government in the sense that like, there are forms you have to fill out if you're like participating in society, and there are boxes you have to check. And there are times when your categories not on there, and what does that mean for you and your identity and does that lead to like, erase your And so definitely, that's going to continue I think to stay, that's gonna be a theme throughout my research is going back to either court cases or legal legal documents or anything like that to show basically how you can feel a certain way or you can be, like, feel, feel and be a certain way, but the government can say something else. And at that point, what do you do?
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 30:25
Are you interested at all in sort of coming full circle and like using your philosophical research on philosophy of race to go back and address kind of the finance sector and business? Or is that something that's in your past life?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 30:42
Oh, no, I think it as much as I don't necessarily engage with it now.,I feel like I'm always like, kind of watching it and seeing if there's like progress or not. Maybe what I'm very, I'm very much interested in public philosophy. Because I think that if I had known about philosophy earlier, I think I would have gotten back to school earlier. And so I think maybe with op eds, or something like that, I will address some of the things that I don't think have changed since I've left the industry. Because it's something it's something I'm always watching for. Yeah.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 31:21
Well, I'll look forward to reading those. I'll post them when they come out. So, as we end, I'd like to ask people, what are you reading right now or what have you read recently that's really exciting you, either in philosophy or otherwise?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 31:36
Yeah. I think I mentioned this earlier about my, I'm getting interested in philosophy of language. And so right now I'm reading two pieces by Luvell Anderson: Roasting Ethics" and the other one is "Racist Humor". And partly because I am taking a philosophy of language course and I'm thinking about like a paper, but I'm interested in how humor that punches down, which is when... it's a keyword that's aimed at socially disadvantaged groups, and it can be offensive. I'm interested in how that constitutes harm. And I know folks, a lot of the time see it as something that is just purely offensive. But I'm interested in arguing for the fact that I think that it causes harm in society. And humor is very tricky, and language and pure and joking. It's very, it people dismiss it, as in take it as like, "you know, it's just a joke," but I think there are very serious repercussions with joking. And so reading Luvell Anderson's two pieces is really helping me think through these ideas that I have.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 32:48
That's great. I'll have to check those out. Because I do agree that, you know, humor is often dismissed, but it is a strong social, it creates social bonds. And so it perpetuates certain attitudes and a sense of belonging and community and therefore also of exclusion. That should not be unexplored.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 33:15
Oh, yeah, definetly!.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 33:17
Yeah, no, I'm really excited!Thank you so much for for agreeing to meet me. And I wish you all the luck with the rest of your PhD.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 33:26
Thank you so much! Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 33:29
Is there any where you would like to direct people, either to your work, or...?
Lisa Martinez-Katout 33:35
Yeah, so for the public philosophy at UC Santa Cruz, if folks want to learn more about it, the website is public philosophy, that ucsc.edu and if they can just like kind of keep their eyes open, and your ears open about what's going on at Penn, I think within the next year or so we'll have a more established public philosophy sector. And, you know, we're trying to get into the prisons in the jails. And also, we are in some of the, I think, elementary schools and participating in ethics school, so keep your ears and eyes open for that. We'd really appreciate it.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 34:14
And if anyone wants to fund Lisa, you can contact me.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 34:21
That'd be awesome!
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 34:23
All right. Thank you. Bye.
Lisa Martinez-Katout 34:25
Thank you so much.
Élaina Gauthier-Mamaril 34:36
Thank you again, Lisa, so much for joining me. I hope that this conversation was stimulating for all of you out there who are listening to this and just note that at the time of this recording the website for the Center of Public Philosophy at UC Santa Cruz was down, so we'll link the website to the Humanities Institute of UC Santa Cruz just in case because it does I have some information on the Center in case that this is an ongoing problem. But hopefully they will get it fixed.
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